Tuesday, May 19, 2009

Design the Ultimate Urban Defense Firearm

A friend of mine once called the Ruger Mini-30 the ultimate urban defense rifle. That got me thinking. What is the ultimate urban defense rifle?

My criteria:
1) Semiautomatic
2) 16”-18” medium-heavy barrel
3) 6.5lbs or less without optics
4) 1200 ft-lbs energy at 200 yards
5) 20-30 round magazines
6) Peep sights with optics mount option
7) AR-15 platform

Now here is the controversial part - .260 Remington.

So what do you say?

73 comments:

  1. All the above but I would neck down a 7.62x39 down to 6 mm and fire 90 grain bullets

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  2. I like the Sprinfield SOCOM 16 in .308. As they say, bring enough gun.

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  3. Marlin carbine in 357 Mag.Short,med wt, Loud.

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    Replies
    1. they make a "carbine" in .357mag? That sounds really cool to shoot and expensive as well, but, hell when your having fun, who cares about money right?

      Delete
  4. 308 cal. best all around or 30.06 knock down anything that walks or crawls on the North American continent

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  5. Mini-30 is a piece of junk. Poor magazine selection, sloppy chamber for typicically poor accuracy ammo.

    Easy one here, an AR15 in 6.8 SPC. Meets all your criteria. Only thing is no enhanced penetration (read steel core) projectiles are available. Urban implies built up area, many structures. If whomever you are defending your person from takes cover behind something impervious to 1200ft/lbs at 200yds you are in trouble.
    I would not set an energy level like that, prefer penetration over an arbitrary number. Exposed attackers within this range, 200yds could be neutralized effectively with any 5.56x45, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 6.8x43 or 7.62x51 semi platform from Grandads deer rifle to Hk416. Any weapon in these calibers can be had in optics ready form either by adding a base or aftermarket accessories.
    Since you quest for "Ultimate-ness" I would absolutely require this be a 16" Carbine AR10 in 7.62x51 with Supressor, Night vision optic, Trijicon Tripower dot, Troy BUIS and a few Magpul accessories. That would be ultimate.

    postban

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    Replies
    1. Ooooh that would be ultimate! but what about price? and can, a responsible, law abiding, and trained up person be able to purchase an M110 or AR-10 at a reasonable price? I know it would be over a grand but by how far is the real question here. I own the Colt AR-15 LE edition, sadly I don't have it handy to provide all of the model numbers, but I love it and the man who sold it to me, was upon the premise that "Colt holds its value." Does that have any merit? Or was I just suckered into buying an over priced piece of kit that I could have bought cheaper?

      Delete
  6. Hard to beat what you have available at the time...........Ruger Mini-14 should do well at inside the house ranges, esp with 30 round clips ........don't know about you, but if I were a goblin and someone let loose at me with the aforementioned I would vacate the premesis ASAP ( If I was still able)

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  7. 6.8 Knock down power of 308 with half the carry weight.Best all around shooter--Will Kill anything on this contenent.
    RC

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    Replies
    1. Agreed, I don't know why NATO & the U.S. has not already moved to the 6.8mm or even the 6.5mm either way, they both have penetration power, especially in the steal core penetrator models and they both have the accuracy at distance, with less windage effect [heaver round] and they both don't weigh that much more to the men and woman who have to carry enough ammo for a patrol or even manning the manning towers [ sorry in my nomenclature is a bit off] at the FOB or Main Base of Operations, where they can easily be resupplied if need be. Congress and NATO are just dragging their feet as they usually do. And honestly it can not be that much more expensive to make new barrels for the riffles, and the Magazines, as long as they keep them at the same over all length, [and obviously the magazines would be different than the 5.56mm magazines it comes down to keeping it the overall size the same is what I mean], they should work just fine with the standard lower receiver. Why wouldn't it work? Come on Government, wake up! you complain about the loss of soldiers on the battle field, well then, lets do something about it not to mention that it WOULD CREAT JOBS FOR PEOPLE TO GO AND DO, THEY WOULD HAVE A PLACE TO WORK AT AND THAT WOULD GIVE THEM MONEY TO PAY BILLS AND GROCERIES, PAY RENT OR A MORTGAGE AND WHATEVER ELS THEY WANTED TO OR NEED TO SPEND IT ON AND THEN THEY COULD, PAY TAXES AND SOCIAL SECURITY, AND KEEP OUR LOVELY CAPITALISTIC SOCIETY ROLLING! F.F.S.!

      Delete
  8. The .260 Rem is a great round, but I would consider .308 the minimum as it would provide better penetration of semi-hard barricades (cars, most walls). If you could find it in 30-06 or .338 I would consider that more fitting for urban combat.

    Side thought: Remington 11-87 with 8 round mag with a mix of winchester soft slugs, 00 Buck and copper solids paired with a .40 Glock will take care of you out to 100 yards. Get the carbine Remington 750 in 30-06 with a couple 10 round magazines for 100 to 300 yards. Given the weight limitation this is not feasible, but since you'll spend 1/3 on this combination than you will for an AR-15 configuration, you could also get some body armor and night sights for the shotgun and rifle.

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  9. 20 - 30 round clip?
    What is that?

    I am from Jew Jersey... I've heard legends of such a device... Way back when Men were free and the Government being made of citizens actually trusted it's citizens.

    But I can't say that I've actually seen one for real?

    But even without the mystical 30 round clip, I'd still vote for the good old AR15.
    Amo is available
    Parts are available
    Not as powerfull as some of the others - but not as heavy either.

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  10. The AK-47 is about the best all around urban defense rifle if you factor in weight, reliability, hard hitting, easy to get rounds, and plenty accurate up to 100-200 yds.

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  11. Saiga 12 gauge. You need a couple mags of bucksot and a couple mags with slugs. Rugged and powerful.

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  12. AK-47 would be hard to beat...

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  13. AR-15 platform works well. The person who picked the AR in 6.8 SPC had good one going. I would choose it in 6.5 Grendel. Better ballistics and bullet selection. 16" heavy barrel and collapsable stock.

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  14. Semi-auto 12 gauge lubed to prevent jams
    Pump 12 if it's cold, dusty or nasty
    Seven round minimum magazine for above
    Mix of slugs and #1 Buck (delivers more shot then 00)
    Recoil pad
    laser or night sights for slugs at 100 yards
    A buddy with a well scoped 30-06 for anything further out would be nice

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  15. Bushmaster "Thumper" in .450. It is small, lightweight and packs enough punch for anything. The only bad part is the ammo and clips are very expensive.

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  16. I feel I should insert the issue of over-penetration. I agree a relatively small projectile and platform as you suggest would indeed make a formadible weapon. I might add a frangible projectile like Glaser that could take the rigors of fire, yet expend it's energy within the 4-6" that make for a good takedown on a human target. Personally, I feel the good ol' 870 in 12 or 20 would be less error prone from a training standpoint.

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  17. 10-22 RUGAR IS GREAT FOR PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE AND AMMO CONSERVATION.
    45 COLT w/230gr BALL WILL PUT THEM DOWN WITH ONE HIT.
    223 AR15-HEAVY 16" BBL w/69gr HP WILL DO MUCH THE SAME OUT PAST 300 YD.
    308 REM700 POLICE LIGHT TACTIAL w/169gr MATCH CAN BE DEADLY OUT TO NEARLY 600 YDS.
    12GA. 7RN PRE1928 MOD12 WIN. 18" BBL. w/00 BUCK OR #2 SHOT WILL CLEAN OUT AN ALLEY OR ROOM AS FAST AS YOU CAN JACK THE SHELLS.
    REMEMBER! YOU CAN ONLY CARRY, SO MUCH, PICK YOUR AMMO AND WEAPONS CAREFULY AND PRECTICE.

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  18. AR-15 Colt heavy 18" barrel. Stick with .223 round. If you need penetration carry a 44 Magnum. Makes a lot of noise and should flush anyone

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  19. Without getting too exotic, and expensive, consider handling, accuracy, reliability, availability of ammo, ease of breakdown....any AR15, 6.8 preferable but not absolute, Carbon 15 as a backup, Cetme or G-3 is excellent in 7.62x51, any good 12ga. pump or lever action in a heavy caliber. Last, discount accuracy here, the AK.

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  20. It's difficult for non-criminals to own "assault rifles" or handguns here in California. Also, if you should actually kill someone who was breaking in to your house you would certainly go to jail. Some kind of shotgun with buckshot that is too small to kill is probably the best that can be done.

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  21. Mine is a Colt AR-15 with a GG&G upper. The upper has back-up sights standard and a rail system that is top notch. I mounted a forward grip, an Aimpoint M3 sight on a riser and a stream light flashlight. I put an m-4 buttstock on it and a SPECTRE CQB sling. One of these days I'll mount a good laser on it and a 2x multiplier for the Aimpoint.

    However, if I could only have one firearm,it would be an AKM or an AK-74. For city work, the AKM would have an edge an that the 7.62x39 round is slower and available in hollow point. Consequently, over-penetration would be less of a concern. My AKM is a Yugoslavian M-70AB with an Eotech 551 mounted on top of the rear sight.

    The AKM can take a ridiculous amount of abuse and keep firing where the ar-15/m-16 is more sensitive to mud, sand and water.

    Lastly, if the crap totally hit the fan, I have an HK 91 for defense against harder targets.

    Then I have a Sig 226 Navy as my end-of-the-world sidearm.

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  22. sounds just like the sks paratrooper model sittin in the gun safe right now......

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  23. There is only one ULTIMATE rifle for any purpose. I follow the rule of "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it." The Barrett Model 95 M107 .50 caliber long range sniper rifle defeats cover and personnel with equal aplomb. Backup would be another rifleman with a .30-06; the M1 Garand comes to mind, but the Remington 700 would serve admirably as well.

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  24. The 260 remington is essentially a necked down .308. With a 120 or 140 grain bullet in 6.5 with the slightly higher velocity might actually penetrate better than the .308. Also has more energy than the 6.8. An AR platform in 260 rem, cool.

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  25. Let's get real. In California, where it's only legal to be a victim, the "best" LEGAL urban combat rifle is an SKS with standard 10-round mag. The ammo is as common as any, and cheap. The Mini-30 is finicky about what 7.62x39 it will digest; the SKS shoots anything. I'm trying to picture trotting down to the gunshop during riot season and scoring enough .260 Remington to see me through the event.

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  26. URBAN FIGHTING REQUIREMENTS, PARTICULARLY WHEN THE TWIN ISSUES OF OVERPENETRATION AND EXCESSIVE RANGE ARE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT, ALONG WITH THE SIZE AND WEIGHT OF SEMI-AUTO FIREARMS DESIGNS CAPABLE OF FIRING THE .260 REMINGTON, ALONG WITH THE LIMITED AVAILABILITY OF THE AMMO, MILITATE AGAINST THIS AS A PEACETIME URBAN FIGHTING FIREARM/CARTRIDGE COMBINATION. STICK WITH YOUR CONFIGURATION, BUT KISS IS THE OPERATIVE ACRONYM. KEEP YOUR FIREARM CHAMBERED IN 5.56x45mm NATO AND ACQUIRE SOME GREEN TIP 62grain PENETRATING BALL FOR BACK-UP USE WHERE THE STANDARD M-193BALL (55grn.) FAILS TO PENETRATE HARDENED TARGETS. THIS IS UNLIKELY,AS I'VE SHOT COMPLETELY THROUGH SEVERAL WALLS OF TYPICAL PLASTERBOARD WITH THE STANDARD M-193 BALL AMMO. KEEP THE GREEN TIP STUFF IN A SPECIALLY DESIGNATED MAGAZINE READY AT HAND. IF IT TAKES MORE THAN A COUPLE OF ROUNDS TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, EITHER YOU NEED TO PRACTICE MORE, OR YOU'RE SO FAR UP THE SHIT CREEK THAT THE NEXT PARAGRAPH APPLIES.

    NOW, IF IT'S DOWN TO URBAN WARFARE, THEN THE BIGGER THE BETTER, 'CAUSE THERE WILL BE UNAVOIDABLE COLLATERAL DAMAGE ON A LARGE SCALE ANYWAY. STICK WITH BATTLE RIFLES CHAMBERED FOR THE 7.62x51mm NATO SIMPLY DUE TO AMMUNITION AVAILABILITY. IN THAT SCENARIO, YOU CAN ALWAYS "LIBERATE" AMMO FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND IT'S AGENTS.

    BROTHER PILGRIM

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  27. In 1928 the U.S.Army Chief of Infantry and the Chief of Cavalry conducted the “Pig Board” on live pigs to see the lethality of .256X51 , .276x51 (7mmX08), and 30/06. They found that all (3) killed but the percieved deadliest was the .256 X 51. They did the test again in 1930 with live goats & called it the "Goat board". And again the same results, they told the Army to go with the 6.5X51 Or 7X51 because they had the lethality of a 30/06 without the extra recoil, case length and powder.
    See this is actual test data Not Opinions yet the US Generals ignored the test data and went with what they had.

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  28. Having made my preparations before the Obama induced mad rush I was able to take my time choosing what I consider the best for my uses. My main rifle is an FN Para. I also have a DPMS 20" heavey barrel with Magpul target stock, grip and magazines. I've fitted this rifle with a quadrail handguard, tango down bipod and foreward handle. The optics on this piece are Leupold 10X fixed-mildot reticle. My side arm is Jim Hougue built "C" class 1911 with a Ceiner 22.conversion.

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  29. I vote for 12 gauge pump shotgun, 8 round capacity. This is what I carried against AK-47's in RVN and am still alive to tell you that it works. Anything out of range with #4 buck shot is not a threat in an urban envifronment.

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  30. AK 47 hands down. Hasn't anyone noticed the re-invention of the wheel with the 6.8s, .260s, heavier loads for the ARs and variants, etc.?

    While not as accurate as the ARs, we're not talking about the need for National Match accuracy in the Neighborhood Watch program.

    AKs go bang everytime without the tender loving care required of the ARs...the 7.62x39 round is a perfect short to medium range stopper and milspec loads shed their jackets and just keep on giving when they hit something hard. Weapons and ammo are plentiful as well.

    With all the AKs out there in the world one might think that their simplicity and knockdown power just might be an advantage. I could be wrong...

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  31. And I have a question that will factor in closely; what exactly is the urban threat? If it is troops or police with flac jackets, a .45 or so is needed to penetrate it. If only gang-bangers or prowlers, even a slingshot will do nicely, unless they outgun you. In Kalifornia here, watersoftening salt works nicely in place of metal shot in the shotguns. But again, who is the foe?

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  32. When the Garand was developed it was chambered for the 276 Peterson round. Army Chief of Staff Douglas MacArthur ordered it redesigned to fire the 30-06 cartridge that we had stockpiled for our 03 Springfields and 1917 Enfields. If the Army had juiced up the 30 Carbine cartridge we would have had the first assualt rifle in the M2 select fire version of the M1 carbine.

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  33. How about the Barrett 6.8mm? ?Seems to have everything one could want.

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  34. I like my Tommygun, .45ACP 235 grains should do the trick around the home in the city. Yes,It's heavy! But the grips are excellent, Accuracy is suprisingly good. They make a lot of BIG holes in things in a short period of time. I have the 50 round drum and several of the 30 round sticks. It also has the advantage of looking really cool, and makes liberals pee in their panties. A good .357 Magnum revolver is as reliable as claw hammer... Very user friendly in a crisis situation, Never any fumbling for safties, and never a concern about feeding the next round... They just go bang when you need them to. I carry a .380 as a CPL carry piece, The one I have is single action so to safely have one chambered it would be cumbersome to use in a hurry. So I carry it saftey off, chamber empty... My magazine load out for my main and spare are 95gr, Round nose alternating with Hydra shock. If one shot is not the correct type for the situation, the next one will be. Short barrel 12ga pump, EXCELLENT! around the house:)... Needing something a bit longer ranges, I could always break out any of My bolt actions, A .30-06, or a .270, a .338 Win Mag or a .300 Remington Ultra Mag should do the trick. My personal choice is whatever is loaded and handy, that you are comfortable with that will go BANG! with 100% reliability. Self Defence is NOT time to remember how to dink with little buttons and catches and levers. Whatever you can accurately put lead on target in a PANIC! will do. Ask yourself, "Can I bet MY life, AND the life of my FAMILY on this firearm???"

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  35. The Mini-30 or 14 is not the firearm - not designed for accuracy. Even though it is a semi-copy of the M-14, it's not even close!
    Any AR-15 is better-16 inch barrel and red dot sight is best with collaspable stock of course.
    I have an original Colt Car-15 Government carbine but with a fixed carry handle.The removeable carry handle was not available when I bought this fine firearm.
    I would prefer a flat top and always in .223 since that is most available.The 6.8 is a great round but try finding it. In an emergency it will not be anywhere.
    Of course in a far reaching emergency, my Remington 700 Police .308 will do the trick! Leopold Tactical 4.5 x 14 mildot scope just rocks!

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  36. OOps-typos above!

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  37. You'll shoot your eye out!

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  38. I would prefer an AR-10 in .308 with at least 2 different ammo loads. One for motor vehicles and one for trepassers as they come on to your property. Along with the sign Trespassers shot, survivors shot again.

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  39. FN P90 TR Tactical Rifle

    Caliber: 5.7x28mm
    Magazine Capacity: 50
    Barrel Length: 10 3/8"
    Overall Length: 19 7/8"
    Weight: 5 lbs., 15 oz.
    Operating Principle: Blowback operated, closed bolt system
    Firing Mode: Selective fire
    Cyclic Rate: 900 rpm
    Additional Description: Three M1913 accessory rails are standard

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  40. Urban survival? Consider the range which you would be shooting. Yes a rifle is appropiate however, in all likelyhood you would be working at close range and may do not really want colatteral penatration. I use an AR for range, a small 9mm for close carry work, a 10/22 for small game and a .410 with #4 shot for evil bad guys, which is always close at hand. The .410 has a relatively low report, adequate human stopping power at close range, is fairly accurate and easy to shoot. You are not going after elephants. You will be defending yourself and family against gangs of evil. Shotguns make a very powerful statement. Few if any will know the difference between the sound of a .410 pump and a 12 ga pump being cycled. They only know that a world of hurt is on its way. Worth considering.

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  41. I agree with most of what was said but my ar-15 is close to 9 lbs. not near to the 6.5 stated but worth every pound as far as accuracy and reliability are concerned. also got the 1100 remington with 7 shell mag ext. and the 10/22 rugar with three 30rd mags, and 7400 Rem 270 for backup with 10 rd mag

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  42. while all i have seen posted sound good i guess i'll give my idea. in home protection should be
    done with a shot gun in pump action. buck shot is
    good. you don't won't to over penatration.
    if you have loved ones in the house you don't won't to take a chance sending 45 cal slug through the house if you miss!!!!!! out side the
    house you can't beat the ar in 5.56X45. it's accurate and ammo can be had anywhere!!!!!! as far as a hand gun goes the 357 mag in revolver is
    hard to beat. it don't jam if it miss fires just
    pull the trigger again.

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  43. RUGER CARBINE IN 44 MAG. DOES IT ALL

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  44. Michael R. SmithMay 21, 2009 at 2:07 PM

    I would/am going with an AR-15(Bushmaster)in 6.8mm REM.SPC,as much power as the 7.62x39mm,as accurate as .223REM.,less recoil than either.The Mini-14 is also a very good choice,and is chambered for the 6.8mm round.

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  45. OneStillPatrioticMay 21, 2009 at 8:47 PM

    For ultimate protection, I'd say that the Browning .50 cal. m.g., mounted on my pickup truck, would be a real sweet street-sweeper. Then an RPG launcher with a mix of HE, Willie P, and Frag rounds in the front seat. At least 4 LAWS disposables in each of the four side boxes, and a dozenor so Claymores withremote-det capability, an AK47 with an Aim-Point or Halographic site, 3 30round mags and a couple of 75 round drum mags.........and I'd be good to go!! Just jivin' guys.......good posts, and excellant cases made for the choices presented.

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  46. Inside the house, a good 12ga pump will do the trick. Outside, the SKS with the stock 10rd mag is hard to beat. If I can see em, I can take em down with it! Ammo is cheap and available too.
    I've hit large potato's on a stick at 100yds with open sights with this gun. And it goes BANG every time I pull the trigger!
    The AK47 would be a good one to have also because of it's reliability. That's what is important...it needs to fire every time you pull the trigger!
    After reading some of these post, I'm glad I don't live in California... I'd be using a slingshot and a steel ball bearing to protect myself and family :-(

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  47. I like the Ma Deuce, too, but they're expensive and hard to shoot off-hand.

    I'd have a preference for a bullpup configuration, preferably in 7.62x39mm. The bullpup corners like a Short Barreled Rifle, but still has the advantage of a long barrel on bullet velocity. The triggers are usually heavy but that's not bad in a combat situation.

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  48. A 30/30 Winchester should be a good one.
    It is one often over looked, but still good.

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  49. I realize the question dealt with the Ultimate Urban weapon, but I believe there are underlying assumptions one can make, to wit:
    1. Given that the question came from an American, I would assume this weapon would be for the American urban scene. Agreed?
    2. Location of a fight sometimes dictates the type of weapon one would choose. Again, agreed?
    3. The length of the battle/fight can be another determining factor. Agreed? For a drawn out engagement, while I agree a Thompson Sub is a wonderful firearm, I'd prefer something along the lines of an AR-15; if for no other reason to save as much energy as possible. (Remember, we're in an urban battle in which the local McDonald's will probably be closed.)

    One commenter noted, "...if the shit hits the fan, there will be collateral damage...." Amen, so those choosing a weapon that could "over penetrate", you're kidding yourself; it's not worth worrying about.

    So, we know we're in an American urban setting and shit is happening. Thank God I picked an American US military round in .223. I had considered something in .308, but I could carry more of the smaller rounds for the same weight. I'm also glad I passed on that Arsenal AK-74; since it was well made, had a battle hardened reputation, but damn I'm in down town Chi-town and there are exactly a lot of ammo shops around.

    So, my friends, my pick is a AR-15 in .223, in the lightest model I can fnd with a telescopic stock, Aimpoint ML-3, folding sights, and a selection of ammo; both HP and penetrators.

    My back up? You knew my answer: A 1911 by Colt, Kimber, Springfield. Carried in an Old El Paso rig, with Wilson Combat magazines, and Novak night sights.

    Keep 'em lit up with the old standard flashlight, a Sure Fire Z2.

    Good luck.

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  50. 12 ga. Winchester Defender in #4 Buckshot to protect the house. On the road, AR-15 with std .223 at 55-71 grain.

    On the hip, .357 w/ 125 gr. semi-jacketed hollow points.

    HITLER IS BACK ... THIS TIME HE'S BLACK !!

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    Replies
    1. Dont say things like that !

      Delete
    2. Dont say things like that !

      Delete
    3. Dont say things like that !

      Delete
  51. PISTOL IS A SOCOMM H&K IN .45. SHOTGUN IS REMINTON 870 ULTRA MAG.ON THE RUN,YOU PICK UP AMMO, PER MY MOS,IT WILL SHOOT ALL 3 LENGHTS.RIFLE IS AK OR SIMILAR IN 7.62 X 39. THE ENEMY WILL HAVE ALL THE AMMO YOU NEED. PROPANE BOTTLES SHOT WITH TRACER AMMO ABSOLUTELY MAKE A GREAT WEAPON. NO TRACERS, STOCK UP ON DUCT TAPE AND EMERGENCY FLARES.SERIOUSLY.

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  52. AR 15 with 556 77grain hands down vs a crummy AK-47. Unless highly modified AK's suck for accuracy and they are hard to control/keep on target. Combat drills with an AK is sh*t compared to doing combat shooting drills with a good AR-15. By combat drills I mean things such as; shooting on the move; speed reloads; failure drills and; box drills. The handling of an AR vs an AK is night and day. You got to think combat shooting, precision, and accuracy you got to actually hit your target not just scare it with the bang. Not just a weapon going bang every time and missing everything your trying to hit. The sites that come on an AK are sh*t compared to the iron sights on any AR. The new AR's are very reliable especially the piston systems. Ya you cant drag them through the much and Sh*t and expect them to work but if your treating a weapon as such you really don't need to have one in the first place.

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  53. For those of us on a tight budget, im fond of my Saiga AK. Got it in .223 for price and ammo avalibility. Mags are a little more than the AR. 27.00 for good surefire mags. Got a AR15 as well. AR is more accurate, sights are surely better on the AR. If your dealing with 150 yards or less the Saiga is just fine. Not that the weapon isnt able to reach out farther, its just a little limited by the stock sights. Saiga $489. AR15 $1100. Found a rear peep sight for the saiga $80 toying with the idea. Might help streach out that 150 yds. Could always scope it, but im not a scope fan...

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  54. Better to over-penetrate than under-range. FNFAL PARA .308

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  55. I've been looking at the Rock River LAR-47 rifle. It is an AR type format rifle/carbine that uses AK magazines and shoots the 7.62 X 39 ammo. It looks like it might be the best of all worlds. Just something to consider...

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  67. There are many rifles which are suitable for self defense such as M-1 Carbine, Ruger Mini-14 / Mini-30 series, any lever action rifle in .357, .44 Mag or .45 Colt. AR-15 if you can still find one reasonably priced. Maybe look into a cheap ar platform that shoots a 223. A shotgun would also be a great option for self defense

    Regard
    Gunner Jacky

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